This should be required
viewing for every
charedi bochur/yungerman from
Lubavitch to Lakewood and
everything in between. I hope they're using every second in yeshiva/
kolel doing what they tell the world
they're doing. If not, they've got some 'splaining to do.
18 comments:
I just finished watching it. Very very moving.
Wow!
Well i just got time to sit and watch this
heavy heavy stuff and very moving
mi keamcho yisroel
Well i hope that EVERY one is doing their best
i mean the the clerics in the army , the cooks , the secrateries, the truck drivers etc etc
otherwise they ALL have some splaining to do
a gute voch
michaeli
Say What?! The Cooks? They'll be fired for not doing their job. It's not them I'm worried about. What are 'clerics in the army'? Those are the good guys that instead of warming some bench on some farkakte kolel somewhere, are actullay risking life and limb to help out their fellow yids. Again, about them I have no concern. Check out http://onlyajew.blogspot.com/2007/05/why.html
I think Michaeli´s point is that those who are learning (yes, if they are and not warming a bench) are also playing as vital a role. will check out the link. and BTW, this clip got me and Levi thinking that actually nowadays it must be pretty frustrating to be in the army, because theres not a clear objective. kids are getting killed for some politicians agenda....
Avremi Vos farshestu nisht
the point is this
the issue is not kollel
the reality is that most people are NOT on the front lines but playing other important roles
thererfore the issue has nothing to do with army avoidance
if we believe that limud hatorah is also imoporratnt for the sucsess of the army then they are part of the team like the cooks etc
if someone does not belive that then there is no discussion
obvuisly if a guty is in kollel and not fulflling his job he needs to explain that not only to the army but to his donors, his family etc etc
(BTW the stastitics are not quite like that blogger you refffered us to - i have rersearched this- many people who have given up time for other things sinmply cannot learn as well as others who have learned well in kollel - the problem is that we need to compare apples with apples )
michaeli
ich kenesht!
What???????????????????????????
can't give up now - the discussion was getting good
Michaeli
michaeli, are you basically saying that the issue is not kollel versus army but whether or not the guys in kollel should actually be in kollel and not doing something else for which they are fit?
something like that
beikar i wanted to make the point the the emotional argument about them not fighting on the front lines like their brothers is a flawed argument as most of the army doesen't
its just a matter of discussion whether they are part of the sucsess of the army etc and of course they should do a good job
michaeli
As is previous discussions on the topic, we differ because where you fantasize of the ideal paradigm as spelled out in the holy books; I am more interested in the reality of its implementation. The reality is that cooks in the army know full well that they could be called to the front line at any time, the same not being true for kollel yungerleit. The fantasy of torah learning being a legitamate tool in the struggle is all nice an well, except; The majority of them remain in kolel precisely to avoid army service; they don’t work – for they would be drafted if they worked legally before the age of 45. The reality is that the majoritiy of them are indeed not doing their job (learning) and therefore fail in contributing to their country either by not being in the armed services or not being productive members of the economy. They leech off their government and their wives. Rabbinical leaders are remiss in not ordering change. I believe those that study play a vital role, but only those that excel should be chosen - the same way not everyone gets to be a paratrooper or pilot, coveted positions in the Israeli army. The halls of Torah today are filled with the cop-outs of society. The hatred of the chilonim toward the charedi world is well placed. This is the reality. Fantasy does not interest me.
Whoa, Avremi..loaded post.I agree with both you and Michaeli in that torah learning is important and that only those who can learn should be. But then again, I´m Lubavitch and went on shlichus :-) How about if some of our Israeli cousins weigh in on this discussion? (If they know it exists, since its in comments)
Shkoach Avremi
I think you have proved the point
One of your comments is totaly inaccurate
the cook will NOT be called to the front line ever
but thats my point
to discuss whether a kollel guy not learning should be there is a valid discussion but it has NOTHING to do with the army (nor with the hatred of the chilonim for which the are tons of other reasons)
People are not in kollel to avoid the draft b/c lakewood and even crown heights kollelim are full
and if a kollel guy who does not learn is not contributing and abusing his wife the same would apply in lakewood - again nothing to do with army
the army is nothing more that an emotional trick to add weight to the anti kollel discussion without sticking to the real issues
another point
i deal a lot with university students
i don't know whats going on in the states but why does no one complain about the students who study "fulltime" which often means (doctors, dentists and law students aside) about 2 days a week spread out and the rest they spend wasting loads of time (apart for a few that get par time work or in the mizrachi world spend time on Benei Akiva)
I fully agree that time wastage in kollel is an issue but lets stick to the uissue
have a great week everyone
By the way I think we need a comment from farmer Moe
Michaeli
You're wrong about the cook. When he enters basic training, he did not know he'd be a cook. His lack of military ability (or culinary expertise) landed him the job. I know this from plenty of chiloni musicain friends of mine that enter the army hoping to land a spot in one of the army bands, but for one reason or another landed in totally unrelated units - thats the differnce - they'll serve no matter what - same not true about the yeshiva guys.
As for remaining in kolel to avoid the draft, you're right. They remain in kolel to avoid a legit job, for if they took a job theyd have to serve - a double whammy.
US kolel members are almost as culpable, theyre only abusing their wives in addition to being totally unproductive members of society.
I'm sticking with it - Kolel in its present form is disease that should be removed from frum society.
Oh well
i guess we wil have to disgaree
i will hold with mine
that when something good is being run with problems
then work on the problems rather than remove the product
at least i get points for generating discussin with a blog post with the most comments
michaeli
It's a defective product, I say. How many times will you return a faulty item to the store before the store owner allows you to substitute for a superior product?
And since I started the topics, I get the credit for this discussion. Again, fantasy.....
So Avremi, whats the superior product in your opinion?
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